The House Judiciary Committee has released a 255-page transcript, as well as an 8 hour and 20-minute video, of its closed-door deposition with Jack Smith. Smith, you recall, was appointed by President Joe Biden to investigate and, if warranted, prosecute Donald Trump for his attempt to overthrow the 2020 election by violently preventing Congress from executing its responsibility to peacefully transfer the executive power on January 6, 2021. Smith’s work was inexplicably delayed by then Attorney General Merrick Garland so that, when Trump was elected the second time, all the prosecutions were stopped and eventually dropped entirely.
Thus, Donald Trump, once again, escaped justice.
On January 6 my wife and I watched on TV from our apartment at Pennsylvania Avenue and 24th Street NW in Washington in disbelief as the attack on the Capitol unfolded, arranged and spurred on by Donald Trump. Surely, we thought, this will be the end of Trump. This is simply a bridge too far. We were wrong. Today, the anniversary of the attack on the Capitol, is an appropriate time to review Jack Smith’s deposition.
You are not likely going to read the entire deposition transcript. I have done so in your place and excerpt it here. The version on which I have relied is reproduced at: https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/house-judiciary-committee-releases-255-page-transcript-of-jack-smiths-deposition-former-special-counsel-president-donald-trump-criminal-investigations-probes-prosecutions-classified-documents-2020-presidential-election-joe-biden.
I begin by noting that the Republican politicians who led the questioning were partisans, determined to exonerate Trump regardless of the evidence. The transcript thus begins with this:
Chairman Jordan has requested this deposition as part of the committee’s oversight of the Biden-Harris administration’s weaponization of the Justice Department and its misuse of Federal law enforcement resources for partisan political purposes.
You may recall that immediately upon taking office the second time, Trump pardoned all the hundreds of convicted people who attacked the Capitol on January 6. That action speaks for itself.
The deposition began with Mr. Smith’s counsel noting that the deposition was being conducted with Volume Two of the special counsel’s report withheld per demand of Donald Trump:
… that amounts to gagging Mr. Smith today and preventing him from telling this committee about his investigation into President’s Trump’s crimes. And, specifically, these crimes include stealing and lying about classified documents he kept in the ballrooms and bathrooms of his Mar-a-Lago clubhouse. And there is no reason at all to continue to keep Volume Two under seal — besides, of course, the fact that Mr. Trump doesn’t like what it says.
A second major limitation, in place at the behest of the Department of Justice, was described this way:
This morning, just over an hour ago, the Department of Justice sent us an email affirming its view that Judge Cannon’s order applies to Mr. Smith and that it precludes him from disclosing any nonpublic information that may be contained in Volume Two, including but not limited to interview transcripts, search warrant materials, business records, toll records, video footage, records obtained by grand jury subpoenas, attorney-client communications, and potential for Rule 404(b) evidence. This restriction significantly limits Mr. Smith’s ability to discuss the classified documents case.
My summary of the deposition must be read in light of these Republican-imposed restrictions obviously intended to protect Trump from incriminating disclosures. Further, despite an express invitation, the Department of Justice declined to have a staff attorney present during the deposition to facilitate the prompt resolution of any questions that might arise regarding the proper scope of questions asked.
Semi-finally, in keeping with Trump’s general approach to the January 6 and document theft issues, he publicly called for the arrest of the special counsel. It was noted on the record that,
Yesterday the President’s chief of staff is reported to have confirmed in interviews that the President is indeed pursuing criminal prosecutions against his perceived adversaries as part of a retribution campaign.
And, finally, to put to rest the slanting of the narrative by the media, Smith’s clear and unequivocal opening statement began with:
Our investigation developed proof beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump engaged in a criminal scheme to overturn the results of the 2020 election and to prevent the lawful transfer of power.
Our investigation also developed powerful evidence that showed that President Trump willfully retained highly classified documents after he left office in January of 2021, storing them at his social club, including in a ballroom and a bathroom. He then repeatedly tried to obstruct justice to conceal his continued retention of those documents….
The timing and speed of our work reflects the strength of the evidence and our confidence that we would have secured convictions at trial. If asked whether to prosecute a former President based on the same facts today, I would do so regardless of whether that President was a Republican or a Democrat.
And so on to the merits, as Republicans tried to frame the issue as one of infringing on Trump’s First Amendment rights to complain about the election outcome. Jack Smith speaks:
There is no historical analog for what President Trump did in this case. As we said in the indictment, he was free to say that he thought he won the election. He was even free to say falsely that he won the election. But what he was not free to do was violate Federal law and use knowing — knowingly false statements about election fraud to target a lawful government function. That he was not allowed to do. And that differentiates this case from any past history.
… the evidence here made clear that President Trump was by a large measure the most culpable and most responsible person in this conspiracy. These crimes were committed for his benefit. The attack that happened at the Capitol, part of this case, does not happen without him. The other co-conspirators were doing this for his benefit. So in terms of why we would pursue a case against him, I entirely disagree with any characterization that our work was in any way meant to hamper him in the Presidential election.
… our evidence is that he in the weeks leading up to January 6th created a level of distrust. He used that level of distrust to get people to believe fraud claims that weren’t true. He made false statements to State legislatures, to his supporters in all sorts of contexts and was aware in the days leading up to January 6th that his supporters were angry when he invited them and then he directed them to the Capitol. Now, once they were at the Capitol and once the attack on the Capitol happened, he refused to stop it. He instead issued a tweet that without question in my mind endangered the life of his own Vice President. And when the violence was going on, he had to be pushed repeatedly by his staff members to do anything to quell it. And then even afterwards he directed co-conspirators to make calls to Members of Congress, people who had [sic]were his political allies, to further delay the proceedings.
Regarding Smith’s moving for gag orders against Trump’s threats:
… with respect to D.C., both the district court and the court of appeals, a panel of judges, found that his actions were, in fact, causing what we said they caused. They were causing witnesses to be intimidated and endangering people. And I believe it was the court of appeals also found that in addition to intimidating or chilling witnesses who existed, it would chill witnesses who had not yet come forward because they were afraid that they would be next.
Regarding the question of the Congressional committee reviewing the special counsel’s case files from the investigation:
Mr. Goldman. If the case files were released, would they include any political considerations by you or your team as you investigated and charged these cases?
Smith: We did not consider politics. I did not consider politics, anyone’s politics, in charging these cases.
Mr. Goldman. And that would be borne out presumably by the case files?
Smith: I’m not aware of anything in the case files that would contradict that.
Mr. Goldman. Because it never happened?
Smith: It never happened.
Smith:
The right to vote in a presidential election is one of the most sacred rights that America has – Americans have, and in this particular case, we had strong evidence that the defendants in this case sought to interfere with, obstruct, injure that right. We had evidence, and just a couple of examples, where President Trump was asking local officials to find 11,000 votes. When you find 11,000 votes, you’re diluting other people’s votes. We had evidence they were targeting other states and particularly certain parts of other states, generally urban parts of States, to have those votes thrown out with no factual basis whatsoever. I believe we cited this in our final report, but there is even statements of the co-conspirators in this case, at least one that’s coming to mind now, specifically saying, “We want to get rid of these votes. We want to subtract them.” And, diluting the vote count in that way, there is strong precedent for that being a violation of the statute that we charged.
Mr. Goldman. Did you ever prosecute someone that you did not believe was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt?
Smith: Never.
When Committee Chairman Jordan resumed questioning Smith, he pressed on the question of why Smith sought the toll records of members of Congress from January 6 when he, Smith, could simply have asked for them. Smith’s response:
… you say now that nobody is disputing, but my experience in criminal investigations is that people often at trial dispute things that you never thought were going to be in dispute during the investigation and so, when I conduct a criminal investigation, I don’t assume there will be no disputes.
Having a record that is a hard record about a time, and the timeline about that particular afternoon was important because the violence had started. The President refused to stop it. He endangered the life of his Vice President, and then he’s getting calls, and not just – not calls from Democrats, not calls from people he doesn’t know – calls from people he trusts, calls from people he relies on – and still refuses to come to the aid of the people at the Capitol. That’s very important evidence for criminal intent in our case.
Name of questioner deleted:
So do you recall any evidence, when you were talking to Mr. Giuliani, that he truly believed all the voter-fraud claims that he was putting out around the country?
Smith:
Our evidence was, he did not. And, in fact, when we interviewed him, he disavowed a number of the claims. He claimed they were mistakes or hyperbole, even the claim about Ruby Freeman, where he, you know, basically destroyed this poor woman’s life by claiming she was a vote scammer. President Trump did the same thing in a recorded call with the Secretary of State; he disavowed things he’d said in that interview.
Smith:
Another example I can give is that Sidney Powell, who’s alleged as one of the co-conspirators, was part of his team at the beginning of this conspiracy. Shortly after, she began making statements that really nobody could credit, that were facially false. And at some point, Giuliani made a statement that she wasn’t on the legal team anymore. And Trump at one point was on a call, President Trump, where he, if I recollect it right, he muted the call and said she was crazy. But then, after that point, he continued to promote her fraud claims and lawsuits. He considered putting her as a special counsel, even though he’d admitted — you know, he used the word “crazy,” and the statements she was making couldn’t by any reasonable person be viewed as true. And so I think that sort of, like, claims that were so outlandish and so just fantastical, continuing to push those sort of claims after they’d been disabused, was strong evidence of our case.
Mr. Lofgren:
What did Donald Trump want Vice President Pence to do to overturn the election results?
Smith:
Well, ultimately, he wanted him to just hand him the election, to say he won. There were different proposals that President Trump and his co-conspirators put to Mike Pence, but, in essence, he wanted Mike Pence to impose his own choice about who should be President over the will of the American people who voted in the election.
Mr. Lofgren:
Was one of those ways that Donald Trump tried to pressure Mr. Pence was to reject the lawful elector certificates of their votes during the electoral counting process? Was that one of the ways that you recall?
Smith: That’s correct.
Questioner redacted:
Can you help now bring us full circle on how you analyzed the First Amendment claims with the knowledge of the fraud that Mr. Trump was putting out to the American public in 2020 and 2021?
Smith:
Sure. From a legal perspective, this is really quite clear. I think all of us want to make sure people’s First Amendment rights are not abridged in a way that they shouldn’t be. I think I certainly feel that way. I’m sure everybody in this room feels that way. But there is a very clear carve-out for fraud in our case law. The Supreme Court — I think there’s — one case is the Stevens case, talks about that, and there are others. And so when you’re committing a fraud, meaning you’re not just saying something that’s untrue, you’re saying it knowing it’s untrue or with reckless disregard for the truth, that’s not protected by the First Amendment. People commit crimes all the time using words. And when someone commits a fraud, an investment fraud, or someone commits an affinity fraud, where you try to gain someone’s trust, get them to trust you as a general matter, and then you rip them off, you defraud them, that’s all words, but it’s not protected by the First Amendment. And in a lot of ways this case was an affinity fraud. The President had people who he had built up — who had built up trust in him, including people in his own party, and he preyed on that. Some people wouldn’t do it. Others would. We’re lucky that enough wouldn’t that the election was upheld.
Regarding the Supreme Court’s decision that Trump was absolutely immune from accountability for crimes committed while executing the president’s executive powers:
Smith:
All of those witnesses … would still be available to us. The heart of our case would still be available to us.
And I think it’s important to know that … our view was that he abused his authority in the Justice Department to as one way, to effectuate this scheme. This was about him as a candidate trying to say he won an election he didn’t win, and so, having to frame this in that matter, obviously, it limited some of the evidence. That’s why we had to supersede the indictment.
But I don’t think it was an exoneration because I still believed that there was substantial evidence that would allow us to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt.
The balance of the deposition relates to the indictment and related search of the Mar-a-Lago premises for confidential documents that Trump removed from the White House, stored in insecure facilities where many people without security clearances could have seen them, and about the efforts of Trump and his aides to conceal the documents from the attorneys searching for them. Smith notes in the deposition that the judge (a Trump appointee) who decided the challenges to the search of Mar-a-Lago had stated that “the defense motion does not even meaningfully challenge the presence of probable cause in the affidavit.” Smith also noted that “President Trump kept these incredibly highly classified documents in boxes with all different sorts of things of all different sorts of shapes and sizes — clothing, memorabilia, newspaper clippings, things of that nature.”
Near the end of the deposition, a redacted questioner posed these questions:
Q: So, Mr. Smith, you spoke earlier today about threats and attacks against — made by Donald Trump against witnesses, prosecutors, judges who had challenged him, including threats against yourself. Do you remember that?
Smith: Yes.
Q : So did President Trump target you personally in posts on Truth Social?
Smith: Yes.
Q: Are you aware, for example, that he called you a, quote, “deranged lunatic,” unquote; quote, “Trump hater,” unquote; and, quote, “psycho”?
Smith: Yes.
Q: Do you recall that, on October 15th this year, President Trump, speaking to reporters, standing next to the Attorney General and the Deputy Attorney General, said, quote, “Deranged Jack Smith, in my opinion, is a criminal,” unquote? Then he also talked about investigating Lisa Monaco, Andrew Weissmann, and Adam Schiff, saying, quote, “I hope they’re looking at all these people. And I’m allowed to find out. I’m, in theory, the chief law enforcement officer,” unquote.
Smith: Yes, I’m aware of that.
Q: And are you aware that President Trump posted on Truth Social on October 29th of this year that, quote, “these thugs should all be investigated and put in prison. A disgrace to humanity. Deranged Jack Smith is a criminal!!!” with three exclamation marks, unquote?
Smith: That may be. I know there were several posts like this.
Q: Okay. Do you think those were a direction, potential direction, to Department of Justice to retaliate against you because of your role as special counsel in 1 the investigation of him?
Smith: Yes.
Q: You are joined by your counsel today from Covington & Burling. Is that right?
Smith: Yes.
Q: And did President Trump or the White House take any actions against your attorneys due to their relationship with you?
Smith: Yes.
Q; And what action did they take?
Smith: They filed an executive order against the law firm and sought to withdraw the security clearances of my attorney.
The deposition concludes with a discussion of the fact that President Trump pardoned all of the convicted men and women who attacked the Capitol on January 6, 2021, injuring and killing police officers, and then pardoned the 77 people involved in seeking to overturn the 2020 election.
